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  • Rules change for HSAX 2014 season

    I want to get this started early so we can have a good list put together by the rule-a-thon.

    I discussed this one with a few people and they seem to be in favor of it.

    I am proposing to remove the point assessment for change in wheel DIAMETER.

    "Change of rim diameter, per full inch increment (up to 16” = 0; greater
    than 16” = 1 per inch from stock; Decrease in rim diameter from stock = 1 point per inch) varies"

    I don't see any real advantage or disadvantage with changing. Yes, there may be a slight advantage of effective gear ratio by going smaller, but as far as effect to times.... I really don't see any. I think this will allow people who are on a budget to use what they want with out the point penality.

    I definitely think we need to keep the rim width point assessment. That does allow you to run a wider tire that does yeild an advantage.

    thoughts?
    Brad Oblak -SCSCC
    2000 Z28 #00 AM
    2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
    2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
    HSAX Instructor

  • #2
    I'm not an autoxer but I will make a comment. Smaller wheels by greater then 1 inch from stock should get a point assement. The change in gear ratio then available is an advantage. Of course you can waive it if the car has tires with the same diameter as stock and no gear ratio advantage.
    First Race Car - ITC 1980 Ford Fiesta #80 MCSCC Champ 1989 & 1994
    Second Race Car - ASR 1993 Ford Mustang Cobra "R" #58
    Current Race Car - ITA 1988 VW 16V Scirocco #80

    Comment


    • #3
      Grassroots magazine did a test on this, they found a 1 inch increase from 17 to 18 inch dia wheels garnered a .75 to 1 second improvement in lap times on their autox course. Not sure that would equate to the same gain for all cars or wheel changes, just saying. I wouldn't push for a rule change pertaining to this, but I wouldn't oppose it either.
      Henry Klopp
      #382
      Red Ion Redline
      Bullfighting, Boxing & Motorsports are the only real sports, everything else is just a game.

      Comment


      • #4
        I understand your point, but right now there are not points assessed for change in tire size. So, people can monkey around with profile changes with no impact to points. Most people can't go down in wheel size due to not clearing factory brakes and some people are forced to run a larger wheel due to brake upgrades that they are already taking points for. Some people just want to run the same wheels/tires on all 4 corners to allow for better tire use and rotation....
        Some people who buy used tires had to go up in rim size due to tire availability....

        With the economy the way it is, we need to try to make it as affordable and easy for people to compete.
        Brad Oblak -SCSCC
        2000 Z28 #00 AM
        2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
        2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
        HSAX Instructor

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by speedbugy996 View Post
          Grassroots magazine did a test on this, they found a 1 inch increase from 17 to 18 inch dia wheels garnered a .75 to 1 second improvement in lap times on their autox course. Not sure that would equate to the same gain for all cars or wheel changes, just saying. I wouldn't push for a rule change pertaining to this, but I wouldn't oppose it either.
          I'd like to see the test data or article. If the overall diameter was the same, I'm not sure how that would work. I don't think there is enough sidewall flex to make a difference. Plus there is the weight of the wheel/tire assy and where the most mass is located. True apples to apples test would have to be exact same diameter, width and assy weight. Also I think my launch is adversly affected with the smaller side wall tires. I'd rather be running my 17's, and would be interested to see if they slowed me down.
          Brad Oblak -SCSCC
          2000 Z28 #00 AM
          2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
          2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
          HSAX Instructor

          Comment


          • #6
            I may have the article in my stack of magazines, if I can find it I'll bring it to autobahn. Going from memory they tested same tire on 17 and 18 wheels, overall dia went up 1 inch with the 18s. It wasn't a huge gain but it was a gain. Considering the things mbc pointed out I'd be ok changing the rule as he described.
            Henry Klopp
            #382
            Red Ion Redline
            Bullfighting, Boxing & Motorsports are the only real sports, everything else is just a game.

            Comment


            • #7
              the larger the wheel and tire combo the more effective contact patch there is availible

              if you do the larger aspect ratio you are canceling out the effect because you will roll the sidewall of the tire but if you keep the same sidewall height yes your gear ratio changes but you are getting more tire hitting the ground


              in my opinion

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mikeracing View Post
                the larger the wheel and tire combo the more effective contact patch there is availible

                if you do the larger aspect ratio you are canceling out the effect because you will roll the sidewall of the tire but if you keep the same sidewall height yes your gear ratio changes but you are getting more tire hitting the ground


                in my opinion
                The sidewall part of your comment would be accurate, but in the test I was referring to it was minimal. They were starting with a short sidewall to start with and only went from a 40 to a 45 so not much difference in tire roll over there. If we're talking older cars with 60 or 65 aspects I think your point would come into play much more.
                Henry Klopp
                #382
                Red Ion Redline
                Bullfighting, Boxing & Motorsports are the only real sports, everything else is just a game.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tire Wheel (rim) points changes.

                  This is timely. Due to the recent wheel size increases on newer cars, 16 to17, 17 to 18, etc. not every high performance tire tread design is made in every rim size or width. Thus some older cars have to take points to run best available tires.

                  But I also know that there can be some gear ratio advantages to increasing rim/tire diameter on some of the tracks we run. Example would be if you have to upshift with stock rim diameter but using a larger rim/tire diameter would allow you stay in the lower gear and not have to shift.

                  Another suggestion would be to make a separate discussion for pointed HSAX rules like we have already for street tire class rules.

                  Bill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Confusion, sorry

                    Another suggestion would be to make a separate discussion for pointed HSAX rules like we have already for street tire class rules.

                    Sorry, what I meant say was we already have a discussion going on rule changes for RAT. Some proposed changes may get lost if comments are in two places in the forum.

                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just moved/regunivated to Rule a thon section.
                      Brad Oblak -SCSCC
                      2000 Z28 #00 AM
                      2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
                      2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
                      HSAX Instructor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Rules change for HSAX 2014 season

                        I originally had this in the HSAX section. Moving it here.
                        See original post for some of the previous discussion.
                        http://mcscc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1775

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        I want to get this started early so we can have a good list put together by the rule-a-thon.

                        I discussed this one with a few people and they seem to be in favor of it.

                        I am proposing to remove the point assessment for change in wheel DIAMETER.

                        "Change of rim diameter, per full inch increment (up to 16” = 0; greater
                        than 16” = 1 per inch from stock; Decrease in rim diameter from stock = 1 point per inch) varies"

                        I don't see any real advantage or disadvantage with changing. Yes, there may be a slight advantage of effective gear ratio by going smaller, but as far as effect to times.... I really don't see any. I think this will allow people who are on a budget to use what they want with out the point penality.

                        I definitely think we need to keep the rim width point assessment. That does allow you to run a wider tire that does yeild an advantage.

                        thoughts?
                        Brad Oblak -SCSCC
                        2000 Z28 #00 AM
                        2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
                        2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
                        HSAX Instructor

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have an additional rule change that I plan to propose:

                          CHANGE #1
                          I propose the deletion of point assessment for Carburetor or Fuel Injection Revision section 6.3:
                          "Carburetor or fuel injection revision on stock manifold ………2 pts” and “Carburetor or fuel injection revision with non-stock manifold……. 3pts”

                          CHANGE #2
                          I propose the modification of point assessment for Intake manifold change section 6.3:

                          Current: “Intake manifold change or adaptor without carb or fuel injection change……. 1pt”

                          Proposed: “Intake manifold change, modification or adaptor………. 2 pts”


                          From GCR:
                          Engine
                          Engine displacement change (per each 3% increase) 1
                          Engine swap, all engine swaps will be classed in the appropriate Race or Street Tire Class
                          Removal or tampering with emission control device, per device 1
                          Removal of catalytic converter(s) 1
                          Intake manifold change or adaptor without carb or fuel injection change 1
                          Carburetor or fuel injection revision on stock manifold 2
                          Carburetor or fuel injection revision with non-stock manifold 3
                          Air intake modification (air box) excluding filter element change 1
                          Camshaft change 2
                          Valve size change and/or head modifications 2
                          Brad Oblak -SCSCC
                          2000 Z28 #00 AM
                          2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 AM Class champ- Blue Camaro
                          2006 & 2007 AR Class champ - Silver Camaro
                          HSAX Instructor

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would agree with all that you listed Brad.
                            Henry Klopp
                            #382
                            Red Ion Redline
                            Bullfighting, Boxing & Motorsports are the only real sports, everything else is just a game.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I like the proposal for allowing wheel diameter changes without points. It allows drivers who show up with huge rims to not be penalized and it allows downsizing, for example from 17" to 16", to save money because smaller rubber is cheaper.

                              Eliminating change of fuel injection points would cause us to all look at fuel injector sizes and adjustable pressure regulators and I don't know what else. Too much freedom to spend time and money, in my opinion, without taking points. Right now, the 2 point assessment pretty much keeps it out of stock classes and that is a good thing.

                              I have the same opinion on the proposal elsewhere to eliminate points from all bushing swaps. The points serve an essential purpose: to deter people from spending money on this type of modification. Should be left as-is.


                              John Q

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